A while back I had a post about good dog trainers. My advice was a good trainer won’t make you do anything you don’t feel comfortable with. I’m going to expand on that a bit to include this, check out the training center and observe the instructor working; WITHOUT your dog.
As many of you know I’ve been looking for a training center focused on positive training, I am interested in learning how to work positively with my dog with the goal to go on and share this knowledge with others.
A friend of mine had mentioned a center she was using; I was supposed to visit this center two weeks ago, but fate intervened and I wasn’t able to go until last night.
I had no intentions of bringing either of the dogs with me, because I wanted to be able to observe and (hopefully) learn and I didn’t want to be distracted by the dogs.
I got to the center about 10 minutes before the beginner obedience class ended, so I sat and watched; the young puppies were so good, they did three-minute downs and stays!
When class was over my friend came over and introduced me to the trainer, a young woman who seemed really nice. The second class came in, there were seven dogs in the class, one Lab, a Lab mix, a Doberman, an Akita, what looked like a Blonde Scottish Terrier and two German Shepherd.
I have to admit, I’m a bit intimidated by the bigger dogs, but watching the Akita working with her human had me mesmerized. The mom had some type of treat she was using and the dog was so focused on her human, she wasn’t paying attention to anything else.
About half-way into the class, the trainer decided to do recalls. One of the Shepherds (Nikka) wasn’t quite getting that her mom wanted her to stay while she walked to the other side of the room. The trainer came over and stood on Nikka’s leash and instructed the mom to walk away. The mom walked away and Nikka jumped up to run after her and came up short.
“Come back and put her down again,” said the instructor. The mom did and started to walk away again. Again Nikka stood up to go after her mom and the instructor yanked the leash so hard, Nikka’s front two feet came off the ground and she yelped.
I sat there in shock, a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I didn’t know what to do.
After that Nikka stayed on that side of the room until her mother called for her, then they started again at the other side of the room.
Honest to God, the exact same thing happened again and again the trainer yanked poor Nikka off her feet. Now she instructed mom to do it; granted mom didn’t do it nearly as harshly as that instructor did, but at that point I couldn’t watch anymore. I walked over to my friend and said, “I have to go.”
She wanted me to stay, and I said, “I can’t stay here and watch them yank that Shepherd again.”
I barely made it to the car before the tears were falling and I cried the whole twenty-two minute ride home. I kept thinking about that poor dog getting yanked around and how grateful I was that I didn’t bring Delilah with me. Quite frankly if the instructor had yanked my dog the way she yanked Nikka, I’d probably be writing this blog from a jail cell.
I feel ashamed that I did nothing to help Nikka, and I wonder is there anything I could have done?
What are your thoughts?
I think I would have done the same thing as you did. You were smart to check it out without bringing Delilah.
When I first started reading about how well the puppies and the other dogs were behaving, I thought it had to be too good to be true. Now I know why.
You will find a positive training place. Hang in there.
Lila and I took classes at the Animal Humane Society, but it didn’t really work out very well because we went in the evening, and Lila was ready for bed when we were halfway through with the class. She’s on a very tight schedule! The classes were very positive though.
I hope you find what you are looking for. Good luck!
Thanks Maryann,
Here’s my dilemma with training centers; they all require the dogs be vaccinated against bordatella and distemper; I’ve discussed it with my vet and we don’t feel they need those shots. Hence my hesitance in checking out the HS. But I will keep looking and possibly get someone to come to the house instead. 🙂
That’s interesting that all the centres in your area require vaccinations. I don’t recall ever being asked for proof of anything at any of the schools we have attended. The only time was when we took the CGN test, and I think that was just rabies. Huh.
But I totally recommend in-home training. It helped us so much!
Dogs are no happier to learn from pain than people are. It’s hard to believe that someone is still using these methods. Keep looking. You were smart to check her out.
I couldn’t believe it either. I was so heartbroken for Nikka and I’m thinking, you know next year mom will be back here because Nikka doesn’t come when she is called.
Gosh, I don’t know what I would have done in that case either. I would have cried too 🙁 That poor dog…
I know George, I felt so bad for her. She looked like she was so happy and couldn’t be separated from her mom.
My thoughts are that eventually Nikka will have a good down stay. In training it isn’t always about making friends with the dog. A German Shepard is a big, powerful, potentially dangerous dog. I do not know that dog’s past or what issues that dog was having with its training, so I don’t feel I am in a position to judge. Not all dogs respond to positive only training. Those that don’t who have owners who are unwilling to try other methods are the ones who end up at the shelter or euthanized. It is a sad but true reality. A yank on a leash doesn’t seem that bad when I consider other possible outcomes. Just my opinion.
That is not to say that you should not train the way you are comfortable. I think people should always train with trainers they feel comfortable with.
I respect your opinion and thank you for responding.
I would like to believe that ALL dogs can be trained using positive reinforcement. That is me, living in my perfect world….:-) I have no real experience or expertise to back it up, just what my heart feels.
The trainer may be right; but I can tell you if she had EVER yanked my dog; I would have laid her out. I did decide it’s not the place for me. 🙂
Again, I thank you for voicing your opinion and appreciate how respectfully it was done. 🙂
I am interested in hearing more about your decision not to vaccinate against distemper. 🙂
Alrighty then, I will write a post about this.
I agree that it was a very smart decision to check out the class beforehand without your dogs. Good for you! I definitely wasn’t that intelligent and we went to our first class knowing nothing at all about the school. Fortunately, we were incredibly lucky and the trainer was awesome. There was definitely no leash-stepping.
If I was the trainer of this class, which I am not, I would not have done this to help. What I would have done was either recommend she work on reinforcing her sit-stays at home before trying this exercise because obviously the dog just doesn’t have enough value for staying in one place while his human walks so far away. They just need more practice. To work on working on recalls with them, and if the dog was comfortable with my presence, I may have offered to hold the dog’s collar while she walked away, whether he remained sitting or not, and then released when she called him.
I am not a trainer, this is just the way I have watched my trainer handle this exact scenario. In fact, it almost increases drive for the recall, which is what you want, because the dog is being held back.
I don’t know if there was anything else you could have done here but to leave. The trainer wouldn’t have likely listened, especially if you called her out in the middle of class. You made the right choice. It’s just too bad. 🙁
Thanks for the support Kristine, I thought for sure I would have been called out for being such a coward, but everyone has been very supportive.
I think your way is a much better way to handle it; but since I’m not a dog trainer I didn’t feel it was appropriate to call her out and make everyone uncomfortable.
I just feel really sad about the whole thing.
I’d like to see someone try that with me!
The really unfortunate part is if the dog turned around and let the trainer have it, then that dog would be considered “dangerous.” It’s truly disgusting.
Jodi, you definitely did the right thing to just leave without saying anything. Although it was hurtful to you to see the dog yanked, it would seem that her owner doesn’t necessarily harm the dog, so let’s hope that only the dog’s pride was temporarily wounded. I don’t like to see a dog hurt either. It was best to walk away as you did, stop second guessing yourself, it’s not like the dog was being beaten, right? I will message you seperately for a place to try training, we are planning to take Molly there now that she’s a year old. 🙂
Thanks Kathy, I felt like such a coward, but I really felt like I had no other option. I was most concerned with the trainer because she really yanked!
I’m so excited you are looking to formally train Molly, I think you will find you get an even closer bond with your dog then you have now. 🙂
I am sorry you experienced that. I always think its best to check out places/classes without your dog to determine if their philosophy is a fit for you and your dog. I would like to say I train using treats and praise but know that there are other ways that work for different dogs and people.
I wasn’t there and can’t say but some dogs can be a little dramatic. I am by no means saying that is the case here but it is possible.
I no longer use the prong with Sophie because she graduated from it but I know that well fitted and used correctly it is a training tool that can be effective. Our first labrador wore one on every walk. She loved seeing the prong because it meant she was going for a walk.
The first time I put it on Sophie, she squawked for a good 5 mins. After that, she was over it. She would prance when the prong came out. She would still pull, her neck is quite thick and it just wasn’t effective for us so we moved to a new technique. But my point is…the drama queen squawked and when she realized she was fine. She got over it. I am sure others may have thought I was torturing her but having trained with it before and learned to use it properly, I knew she was ok.
But again it really comes down to knowing your dog and what works for you. Sophie is a semi hard headed dog. She takes most things in stride…depending on the day. For a soft dog, I would never think to use a prong regardless of whether it was used correctly or not. It just wouldn’t work for them. What you witnessed sounds excessive but not knowing the dog’s background, I can’t say if maybe the trainer tried an different approach at first but the dog is more stubborn than others?
I hope you find a class that fits for you and Delilah!!
A while back someone came to our training class without their dog and it never dawned on me, I was wondering, “Why didn’t they bring the dog?” But now I can see how smart it was on their part to check it out.
I do know that some personality types can be dramatic, and I never knew it about Sophie! I don’t think either one of my dogs are dramatic; okay maybe Delilah is when it comes to food, but she doesn’t yip unless she is hurt, so if she yipped or yelped, I would know it hurt.
I did try the prong on Delilah but it didn’t seem to work, so I stopped, I was never a fan of it anyway, which doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work for some dogs.
Delilah is a big hard headed dog, stubborn as the day is long so she really has to be coaxed or tricked if you are trying to get her to do something she doesn’t want to. 🙂
I appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge and experiences with me, it does bring me some comfort.
Thank you Patty!
It’s hard isn’t it. I had Flo enrolled in puppy classes here – we are seriously geographically isolated and have a very small population spread over a very large area, so there are really only 2 dog training school options. One is a positive training school but it is a long (looooong) drive and it’s in the evenings during the week. It also runs only in the dry season (which has just finished). The other uses check chains, and I had been taking her there. Thankfully when I was taking Flo she was in the 1st class for young puppies and they didn’t use the check chain at all. She graduated to the 2nd class and that’s when the check chain started to be used (a little too roughly in my opinion) but she always did as she was asked and we were only in the class for about 3 weeks because of personal circumstances and Flo’s legs. I have decided not to take her back to that school and will instead make the long drive out to the other school when it re-opens in 6 months. I feel that, when I had her in the class before, she was younger and keener to learn and was probably more responsive. Now that she’s a few months older and a little more stubborn I would be concerned that she might get a few rough yanks on the chain and I don’t think that’s for us. Having said all that, I really do agree with 2browndogs… if I didn’t have success with positive training then I would try the check chain trainer – Flo is a big dog and above everything else I must be able to control her – she’s the one that will suffer if I can’t.
H and the fabulously one year old Flo! xx
Thanks for your input, I do agree with 2BrownDawgs that not all dogs respond to food motivated (positive reinforcement) training. I do believe however, it should be tried before reverting to a more disciplined style.
But that is my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own. 🙂
Happy one year birthday to the Fabulous Flo!!!
Thanks for weighing in.
This woud be hard to comment on without being present to witness the event but 2browndawgs makes very valid and good points, not all dogs will respond to positive reinforcement and different techniques may be necassary.
In this day of sue happy people and people who try to bring laws against particular breeds it is important for all dog owners to have a good handle and control of their beloved four legged friends.
I hope you and Delilah find exactly the right situation and trainer you feel comfortable with.