Tonight was the very first class held in our new training center. I am still of the mind that positive reinforcement is better than force, so I had a plastic baggie with some treats in my pocket.
As is the custom, Hubby takes Sampson and I take Delilah. I’m not sure what opinions you have gathered about Delilah, but I am here to tell you in class, Delilah is a stubborn lab. She will sit, but it is difficult to get her into a down.
Before I was educated in the power of positive reinforcement I am ashamed to say, I bought into the traditional methods of training. I would NEVER do something I felt was wrong, but I did buy into the pushing and pulling to get them to do my bidding. Having seen the light I am eager to help others see how positive reinforcement is a much better method of teaching.
That being said, when I saw a classmate struggling to get her lab into a down, I went over treat in hand, knelt down in front of him and said, “Down.” It took about 20 seconds, but he did go into a down. I rewarded him with the bit of dried salmon I had, gave him the “Stay” command and walked away. He got up after a few seconds. I went back over, repeated the process and this time he stayed down.
It was then time for a potty break after which I went up to his “mom” and offered her a couple of my treats, she hesitated a bit and then refused. I though to myself as we drove off after class, she would much rather pull on her dog’s neck with his choke collar, then reward him with food. It made me feel really sad.
The interesting thing about this whole story is Pamela over at Something Wagging just this morning had a post about this very topic, which left me wondering how I would react in a similar situation.
Lo and behold I found out.
Some pictures from class.
Miss Delilah
Mr. Sampson
The dog I tried to help.
Chuck and Orbit
Maybe she will think about it between now and the next class and decide to give it a try. Perhaps she was embarrassed or just didn’t know how to respond.
I’m not real sure how you would get a dog to do a down with the choke, trying to picture that one in my head. I have found food to be a real motivator though 🙂
There are a lot of people who do not know how to properly use a choke chain, it isn’t for choking your dog, it’s for having control over the head, kind of like a halter on a horse; where you lead the head the body will follow. We do use these in conformation showing but properly, never for choking or jerking the dog around.
Don’t give up trying to help people with their dogs, sounds like you handled it very nicely.
p.s. Delilah was just working up to her down 😉
I hope she thinks about it Misty, maybe I embarassed her. The way they are taught in class to get a dog to do a down is to step on the leash about a foot away from where it connects to the collar. The weight of the foot puts pressure on the neck and basically forces the dog into a down.
Thanks for the input.
Jodi – did u ask the woman if you could try something with her dog? Or did you just automatically do it? If you didn’t ask, I can imagine she was either embarassed or maybe thought you were being rude, taking it on your own to do it. You know that some people can be funny like that when it comes to their dogs…
When I took Hef to puppy training classes, the trainer tried to physically push Hef into a Down position when he wasn’t listening w/treats. I was a little appawled by it. Hef, being the stubborn Bully that he is, didn’t go down. In my head, I think he was like, “Lady, it def isn’t going to happen w/you pushing on me like that!” When I got home, I tried the down position again w/a treat & he didn’t right away! Positive reinforcement is what I believe in too.
No I didn’t ask. I asked after the fact, sort of like a “you don’t mind do you?” which I see now was totally the wrong to handle it. People in that class (and now I must group myself in there as well) have a tendenancy to just go up and assist others. If I’m going to be a good trainer, then I must learn to be respectful. 🙁 My bad.
I believe that figuring out how to share effective and humane training methods with people is the 21st century challenge. Especially since people can get very threatened, defensive, embarrassed, you name it, when we try to open the discussion.
The good news is that people care enough about their dogs to work with them so they can live happily together. No one bothered with training classes when their dog only lived outside on a chain.
Good for you for making an attempt. And continue to lead by example. Maybe being a friend to the woman will open her up to new possibilities in the future. After all, Delilah brings challenges to your training that you probably have in common. Who ever heard of a lab who doesn’t like to lay down? 🙂
Thanks for the shout out. I’m gratified that it got people thinking about how to share.
Thanks Pamela, I can see now the things I did incorrectly, but it will get better. I won’t ever stop trying to help dogs.
Thank you for that great post! We CAN make a difference, one dog at a time if that is what we must do. 🙂
We use a training collar (ie choke chain) and obviously e-collar. When used properly they are very effective training tools. Treats are also an effective training tool and we have used them too. I would not say one tool is better than another. I do not buy into the positive only training as the “best” or only method. It works for some dogs, but not all. And where it doesn’t the result to the dog and its owner is not good. As I continuously say, every dog is different. Not all dogs respond to treats. Not all dogs respond to e collar. The most skilled trainers know what is working with a dog and what is not and adjust the training to get the result they want.
Both of our Chessies would not do down. They are both alpha and they did not want to give up that kind of control. Storm was particularly tough. The training class we were at used treats and a gentle push down while the dog was in a sit, (gentle, no force). Most dogs got it after a time or two. They would do a down on command. Well Storm did not want to do it. She may look small, but she is 75 lbs of pure muscle and strong as a horse and if she doesn’t want to do something, she isn’t going to do it. The instructor saw me struggling with her and gave me an alternate method to teach down which I worked on at home. The next week, she was doing down with the rest of the class and few weeks after that earned her CGC, (which required a long down/stay). Now if the instructor had not offered me a way to see success with my dog, would I have stuck with the class or just dropped out? It is great you were able to give that owner a way to succeed because of course the best training is teaching the owner how to train their dog.
I hear exactly what you are saying, Sampson was trained on an e-collar and he is a great dog; he hasn’t worn that collar in 4 years. In fact I sold it for $40 to a guy with a Rottie and bought myself a pair of shoes with the money. Personally I don’t care for them, but I do see the need for them on some dogs.
Would you share your trick for the down? Delilah is getting there, she does it really well in the house but in the training ring she hesitates, definitely the alpha thing. 😉
Sorry way behind reading. I am trying to remember the exact thing I did. It worked so quickly, I only had to use it for about a week and that was over 4 years ago. I just cannot remember it exactly. Isn’t that horrible? CRS I will try to remember…I know it was a twist on the way it was being taught in class and I remember that part of it was to get the dog to sit and then coax them down gently while putting a treat on the floor in between their front paws (but toward their body) so that it would be natural for them to lay down to eat it, (they couldn’t really reach it from a sit). But Storm still wouldn’t do it, so I did something a little different to get her in the down from the sit and that is the part I cannot remember.
I have the same ailment. Well if you remember I’ll be here! Thank you for commenting.
When I (Frankie Furter) was taking MY classes at PetSmart University and Stuffie Distributorship… my mom always gave me tiny treats fur doing stuffs Right… Butt I don’t eat much so she eventually just went to Lots of LOVE and Kisses and hugs and Rubs when I was RIGHT… I loved that and learned really fast. Soooo she just stopped with the treats and gave me the Tender Talk and Touches. I think SHE liked it better too. hehehe
That is our ultimate goal Frankie, but in the beginning we will use LOTS of treatsies for good behavior. Eventually we will get to just loves and kisses.
I saw your comment on Gone for a Walk! You are absolutely correct that it is an hour and you can split it up over the whole week 🙂 There are folks who are really going the distance and doing an hour a day or more, but that isn’t required! We’re so excited to have you, Sampson & Delilah kmaping with us!
We are excited too! Although if I am telling the truth we walk 5 times a week for at least a 1/2 an hour each day (daycare the other two) so we already have week one in the bag. 😉
I loved Pamela’s post and I love yours too! I think teaching by positive example is the way to go, and in a classroom situation I think its OK that you just went up and offered another way. Hopefully you will have a chance to establish a rapport and keep opening this human’s mind.
And just a thought on training a Down…lots of dogs have trouble with this! If you reward it enough when the dog just lies down on his own, it will become something he offers when he doesn’t know what else to do. Then he’ll be more likely to offer it when you ask for it, and you can then click and reward and solidify it into a behavior.
I think a lot of dogs are nervous about going into such a vulnerable position–it has helped me to make sure I stay positive and make my voice very happy and bright when I say “Down.”
Thanks Kirsten! I wasn’t sure about that. You rock!! Thank you for the comment.
I can totally understand how keen you were to illustrate that positive reinforcement is the better way to go. I am often shocking clients with being able to get my patients to be more cooperative than they have ever been just with the use of liver treats. Many of my patients come in running through the doors full of excitement and so no one should ever take the power of the liver treat for granted!!!
We assume a dog will not respond to treats, but let’s face it we can’t understand the power of food because we can have it whenever WE want it. Dogs don’t have that same capability.